Terran Meeting - June 9th, 2009

Terran Meeting Room

Welcome to the first of a series of meetings that Nate is holding after roughly a year of being a fachead at 2K5! There are a lot of things to go over tonight so let's start off with the basic rules.

1: Treat everyone with respect: whether present in the meeting room or offline. You never know who might be an alt of whomever.

2: Do not send +meetmes please. This is a closed meeting to apped Terrans and those who already requested to be there. Why? Apped Terrans are the one who have the most invested in this type of meeting and have asked for it. And those who requested to be here already submitted their reasons so it is part of the agenda.

3: Let Nate speak on issues and then open the floor to everyone. Nothing personal but a bit of structure will help. Page Nate when you want to bring up something. Also put in ALL CAPS on whether or not you want to bring up anonymously or not.

Topics:

Terran's Canon Relationship

Vehicles and Exos

Pros To Being a Terran

Cons To Being a Terran

Complaints Against Terrans

Overall Opinions

Upcoming Plots

Contents:

Sam

Nate Briar

Noah Wolfe

James Bailey

Talazia Keldahoff

Jayson Redfield

Greg MacLeod

Rodimus Prime

You say, "Nice turn out."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "yeah....."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "somehow I'm sure everyone wanted to be here."

Noah Wolfe agrees.

Jayson Redfield will try to stay awake. ;) (I'm kidding!)

Nate Briar says, "This is why I decided to make out own private hang out. That way no one can accidently walk in."

Marissa Faireborn tries to mentally summon Andi.

Nate Briar says, "Andi sadly has work."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "see? Even Apoc wanted to be here."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "I'm lagging hard due to storms."

Sam passes out consolation beers.

Jayson Redfield says, "Beer!"

Nate Briar says, "Alright, everyone ready?"

Jayson Redfield nodnods!

You say, "Yo Joe!"

Noah Wolfe says, "Aye, let's do this thang..."

Sam starts his log. Let's do it.

Nate Briar says, "Excellent. I don't want to log this on my end due to any pages or any possible confidential info."

Nate Briar says, "First topic is the Terrans and our Canon Relationship to the Transformers."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "Marissa? can you log too?"

You say, "Sure."

Talazia Keldahoff listens as best she can.

Jayson Redfield pats Tal.

Rodimus Prime supposes he should quit TSing with Marissa over page, then.

Jayson Redfield ews!

Noah Wolfe gasps!

Nate Briar says, "After watching as much G1 material and the movie as possible in two weeks as well as speaking with some other people, it seems like the EDC/humans as a whole really are either being raided, attacked, or supporting characters. Any opinions on this?"

Talazia Keldahoff snerk./

Nate Briar says, "By the way, that's just what I observed. I'd like to see your ideas. :)"

You say, "I agree that they are supporting characters in canon, yes."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "well...it IS kinda hard to stand up to 30 foot giant robots with armor and suits about half their size."

Nate Briar says, "Let's keep to the rules, I'm opening the floor to Beetle first. ;)"

You say, "And other than the movie I don't know if they ever used exo-suits."

You say, "Sorry."

Nate Briar says, "It's cool. I just don't want to lose my concentration. You know how bad I suck at multi-conversing."

Jayson Redfield pats Nate.

Nate Briar says, "Well, while James is typing out his opinion, I'm going to talk about mine. I'd like to see us be a force to reckon with. You'll see later on when we get to Exos and Vehicles that there are some new possible ideas out there."

Nate Briar says, "Also, I want to thank you all."

Noah Wolfe nods and sips his beer.

Jayson Redfield says, "Thank us for what? Being awesome? :D"

Noah Wolfe is full of it...awesome.

James Bailey doesn't think you can go by the G1 cartoons or the movie because...come on, it was a movie. :) Those all have endings, they have certain people being the stars, and other things. Heck, it had the good guys 'win' in every single way, which obviously would never work here. I think the faction can be as strong or as weak as the players make it, through their activity and their RP and whatnot.

It also kind of bothers me that people can force things like *Masters that suddenly appear because some people like them and say 'they get these advantages and we want to build them up in these ways because it would be cool!' while neglecting the faction that already HAS players, and has generated tons of RP and has a long history here.

James Bailey says, "Basically I just think we ignore canon in so many other ways to make things fun, we shouldn't enforce it just to limit Terran player's fun."

James Bailey says, "Er, that's it from me."

Nate Briar says, "Agreed, James. It does feel that the other factions are evolving at an alarming rate when you can consider the prospect of new FCs being added in such as *Masters and we're as high tech as a Talon or a Warthog. After James, Sam is up followed by Rodimus Prime."

Sam says, "This is a little long."

Nate Briar says, "I'd also like to state that this is more of a meeting to share my light and your lights on topics so if it seems like I'm rushing with the agreeing or not, it's because I will address them by the next meeting or on the wiki or faction board."

Sam says:

The Terran faction, or more specifically the EDC, is kind of hanging out on a limb right now. The issues as I see them are pretty straightforward:

1) The EDC doesn't have the IC presence to support its own existence

2) The MUSH straightaway ignores the EDC as anything more than a purely tertiary faction.

The sum of these two things means that except when -specifically prompted-, the EDC contributes very little to the MUSH except for the occasional odd exo-suit in a fight between Autobots and Decepticons, or more often (and what they're best at), targets.

Not that there's anything wrong with being targets. In a way, it's the humans' nature in this conflict between giant robots to be caught in the middle. The humans are the group that's raided, assaulted, held hostage, and forms the bulk of available collateral damage. It is, in a way, unreasonable to see the humans as anything -better- than targets.

Except we want to have PC humans that contribute. So we have the EDC. Unfortunately, we end up with a strange situation, one in which humans are targets, but PC humans with their PC human faction are somehow meant to -not- just be targets. We can't really have it both ways, but to remove the 'humans as targets' concept totally throws the Autobot/Decepticon fight out of whack.

The way I see it, we're kind of in a state of limbo. We're too independent to be effective, because making us both independent -and- effective destroys the balance of the MUSH.

James Bailey says, "Hmm what if we want to respond or add to something someone else says."

Nate Briar says, "There's going to be a second round."

Nate Briar says, "Like in addition to's and comments."

Sam says, "Next caller, please. I'm just putting out my thesis to prompt discussion. :)"

Nate Briar says, "Rodikiss Prime and then the pretty lady."

Nate Briar winks at Don.

Talazia Keldahoff says, "pretty lady?"

Talazia Keldahoff looks around.

Nate Briar says, "Not you, you git. Marissa."

Nate Briar ducks.

Noah Wolfe points and laughs.

Jayson Redfield says, "Hey, Kup."

Jayson Redfield snickers.

Sam says, "Uh, summation to be clear: I think the current state of affairs is a problem, as above, for those reasons. I don't think it's unsolveable, I just think it's a problem."

Rodimus Prime says, "One reason the other factions evolve with regards to new FCs is because there are new FCs to add. Short of incorporating GI Joe or something, there /are/ no human FCs to add. None of us played with EDC toys as children. Perhaps some played with exo-suit like toys, but those were generally say, Mechwarrior, Battletech, etc, and like it or not, this is not a Battletech or a Mechwarrior MUSH. The central theme of a Transformers MUSH that contains both factions is going to be the Transformer civil war. The majority of the players who came here, did so to play an alien vs. alien conflict, not a human vs. alien conflict. This does not mean that we cannot find ways to accomodate those who want to play humans, because yes, they do contribute, but it does mean that humans vs. aliens is cannot become the central theme of the MUSH in order for the theme and the reason many of us are here to remain in-tact. I will also add that we have further problems with the fact that we have /two/ 'good guy' factions and only one 'villain' faction, which runs the risk of creating an inherent inbalance, especially if the Terran faction were to become a 'seperate but equal' faction on the level of the other two (re: Sam's comment about making the EDC both independent and effective upsetting the balance of things)."

Rodimus Prime says, "I would also note, by the way, that the current set up limits and even prevents certain human archtypes, particularly those that fall under what traditionally appears in the show. I have a human I've been kicking around that pretty much has no place in the game. I'm cool with that because I enjoy the characters I do play, but it is a downside to 'throwing canon out the window.'"

Sam says, "(three good-guy factions, since Junkions tend to be Autobots with weird accents and funny names, but somewhat more marginal than the EDC)"

Rodimus Prime says, "Well, three seperate but equal good guy factions would be even worse, balance-wise."

Nate Briar says, "See, I'm hitting a blank right now because when I first joined 2k5, I could see Militants and Michael Briars running around as a force to be afraid of. I understand that this theme is Transformers and not GIJoe... But we'll get to that later. ;) After Roddo finishes, Marissa takes the plank."

Rodimus Prime says, "I'm done."

Noah Wolfe says, "The good ol' days. :D"

You are carrying:

Starscream

Exo-Suit Ares < Marissa Faireborn >

Maui Base Camp(#8940TOn)

All You Need to Know About the EDC < EDC > (#8286T)

Meeting Agenda(#1760Tn)

You have 1000 Leftover BotCon Passes.

You say, "I disagree with Sam concerning the EDC not contributing much. I find they add a ton of flavour to the MUSH by having an established armed forces to represent humanity, and they're a good spot for human characters to get together. I personally absolutely love the dynamic of humans and Autobots RPing together, both when playing a Bot and an EDCer. I agree that humanity's a big target, as this is a consistent theme in Transformers, but I don't see how that somehow invalidates PC humans.

I do agree with Sam, however, about how independent the EDC is. That is to say, as a group by themselves they can't really get into interesting fights with the Cons since their dudes are all OC level. The days of Briar and Ollin whuppin' moderately powered Decepticons are long gone (not that having 1 dude made /that/ much of a difference). Personally my solution is just 'well, just work with the Autobots a lot', but not everyone likes having to 'rely' on them.

Concerning humans and canon, yes the EDC was obviously a supporting group in that the show only occasionally focused on them, but that's no different than every Transformer character who's name doesn't include 'Prime' or '-tron' in their name. Overall I found humans to be a /very/ big part of the cartoon and comic canon. They were showing up all over the place.

Concerning James's comments, I have some issues. 1. I'm not sure I see any advantages that we gave the *masters, per se. 2. I don't think we've neglected the EDC (other than that their objects are due for an overhaul and they need more than 1 leader)."

Sam says, "If I may directly address the issue of the *Masters, in one line?"

Nate Briar says, "Go for it. We'll move onto closing statements on this topic after that."

Sam says, "They get to pretty much play humans -and- stomp-level FCs at the same time. Waters down our brand. :)"

Marissa Faireborn nods and can see that.

Rodimus Prime says, "I don't know. Only if these are people who would have otherwise apped EDC."

Sam says, "Not that. Rather, when the Autobots need human-scale people for anything, who will they logically turn to. The EDC, or their own ranks of *Masters?"

Rodimus Prime says, "Whoever's online and wants to be in the scene, in my experience."

You say, "Galen has a stupid bowl cut so I think we're safe there."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "marissa says that and I think of the little figures from the game of life."

Nate Briar says, "Minor spam alert!"

Nate Briar says, "Everyone, I agree with your points about where the EDC and humans fit in for the most part. However, Sam, by your definition, then every Decepticon base and possession on Earth should be capable of being over run by Terrans. I'd imagine with a 50 year conflict, humans would be quite capable having something to make taking down a Seeker, Sweep, or even Galvatron possible. If we can allow for Cybertronian technology to continue to advance, then why not allow for the technology that we saw in the 1980's cartoon advance to what we have today. We've seen rockets launched that can take down a nuke in a heartbeat. So something such as the Cone-1 making a landing on a Decepticon launchpad? That should be just as easy to take down. Humans do make up probably around 12 billion in sheer force at this point. Granted there are the children, old, and invalids... but give the rest an anti-aircraft missile launcher that are being sold in hobby stores all around the Middle East right now in real life... man, we'd have kicked the Decepticons off this planet in seconds. ;)"

Sam says, "I feel like my position is being misrepresented, Nate."

James Bailey says, "Me too!"

James Bailey says, "I kinda want to get to the other topics Nate had on the list too."

Nate Briar says, "I feel more or less that it's hard to be a human because in real life, we'd be more like what you see in the Michael Bay Transformers. I hate to admit it, but that's the image I see of the EDC being able to lose maybe 20 humans in but taking down a Decepticon. However, theme wise, we are more the bubble walkers that we see Spike in the movie. :)"

Marissa Faireborn shivers re: bubble walkers.

Noah Wolfe hehehes, "Transforming arm cannons!"

Nate Briar says, "Okay, we'll move on and the next meeting will address further details and Sam, I did not mean to misrepresent you."

Nate Briar says, "Vehicles and Exos..."

Terran Meeting Room

Welcome to the first of a series of meetings that Nate is holding after roughly a year of being a fachead at 2K5! There are a lot of things to go over tonight so let's start off with the basic rules.

1: Treat everyone with respect: whether present in the meeting room or offline. You never know who might be an alt of whomever.

2: Do not send +meetmes please. This is a closed meeting to apped Terrans and those who already requested to be there. Why? Apped Terrans are the one who have the most invested in this type of meeting and have asked for it. And those who requested to be here already submitted their reasons so it is part of the agenda.

3: Let Nate speak on issues and then open the floor to everyone. Nothing personal but a bit of structure will help. Page Nate when you want to bring up something. Also put in ALL CAPS on whether or not you want to bring up anonymously or not.

Topics:

Terran's Canon Relationship

Vehicles and Exos

Pros To Being a Terran

Cons To Being a Terran

Complaints Against Terrans

Overall Opinions

Upcoming Plots

Contents:

Kup

Apocryphacius

Talazia Keldahoff

Sam

Nate Briar

Noah Wolfe

James Bailey

Jayson Redfield

Greg MacLeod

Rodimus Prime

Jayson Redfield hees. Bubble walkers.

Sam says, "To segue into the second topic: What we have is a -thematic- issue. We obviously can't just give the humans massive tech levels and turn them loose. But what we can do is up the tech level (or at least the tech effectiveness), but in doing so double-up the thematic rarity. If the Terran faction no longer represents a large organized military, but rather a more justified adjunct of the Autobots, and if in doing so we reduce the thematic numbers of the Terran faction to anywhere from a few dozen to a few hundred, we can make the -individual- Terrans fit in however we want, because then they get to represent some elite's elite."

Noah Wolfe always figured the OC humans represented the elite's elite?

Talazia Keldahoff figured that as well.

Nate Briar says, "Personally, I'm loving the idea of something like a big tank trying to take down a Decepticon without having the transformation of the Warthog Exos. Paying for exos costs a lot. Keeping up repairs on exo does cost a lot, getting tanks would be very cheap compared to a Warthog exo. Plus statwise, it would be a lot easier to afford because all your attacks are in one mode. With that being said, while I am pushing for vehicles personally, I'm totally up for letting you guys keep with the exos.

You've earned them. Even Jayson has earned the right to call his the Platypus. So please don't think that when vehicles roll out, we're nixing the whole idea of exos."

Nate Briar says, "So, James, Tal, and Marissa... in that order. And Sam, we are the elite of the elite. But we are a thematic issue as well."

Jayson Redfield says, "Platypus? :P"

Jayson Redfield nods, though.

Noah Wolfe snickers.

Nate Briar says, "After Marissa, Sam. :)"

James Bailey thinks all of what Sam calls the thematic elements can actually be ignored without too much harm. There are a ton of similar elements here ignored, there almost have to be for a MUSH to work. Just have a vague guideline that the Terrans can't just be rolled over by Decepticons the same way Decepticons can't be rolled over if Autobots and Terrans join together. People are creative and can find ways to make sure that happens, and can add as much or as little additional background as necessary to make that realistic for themselves.

But Nate, I kinda think the current exo/vehicle setup is very close to sufficient. I think the Exo's are balanced. I think things are pretty even between Terran OCs and TF OCs. In theory if you spend APs on a character you can build up a strong one.

James Bailey says, "(little more coming)"

James Bailey says, "But honestly, it feels like a lot of the rules about what isn't allowed with Exo's are things Terrans have -directly- said they'd like to do. Things like increasing size, changing a Talon into a Macross fighter, etc (even if it's a Talon codewise besides any upgrades). I gave the example of changing an exo into a fighter by getting it renamed and redesc'ed - someone did that in the past, and it only happened once and I'm sure that player had fun and didn't unbalance the theme, because in the end it still had the stats of a 'balanced' Exo."

James Bailey says, "So it feels like rules are being put in place to restrict creativity and fun and remove what could have let the existing code/objects give additional flexibility without unbalancing stats or requiring new code or whatever. And the result is that Nate has to ask for new stuff, and other people won't like the stuff he asks for and complain about that too. ;)"

James Bailey says, "Okay, done."

Nate Briar says, "Tal, Marissa, Sam, Noah, Rodimus, Apoc, Marsha, John Boy, Old Greg.... did I miss anyone?"

Talazia Keldahoff baps nate.

Jayson Redfield is John Boy now?

Nate Briar says, "No, Marsha. :("

Jayson Redfield :(

Talazia Keldahoff says, "James Touched on something that has had the EDC in an uproar since it was brought in with tacs. yeah.....now allowing us to rebuild our exos seems to have kept us from being very creative with our exos. some of us want to increase their size while others want to make a completely different looking Exo. I've even had a refusal to get an ability because the talon 'was too small to accomodate it'. Even though I like the exos......having vehicles makes sense, and is 'cheaper' thematically. We're more likely to have them lying around than having our exos on hand. cheaper to transport too."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "done...for now."

You say, "The EDC does represent humanity's elite, yeah (pause for laughter). I also agree that if we wanna make the EDC an Autobot adjunct, that'd work. I'd personally be very happy with that. Give all the humies a Bot faction tag and call it a day. Vehicle wise, I dunno, I prefer tanks and jeeps and stuff but I don't dislike exos so much that I won't put up with them. I do find the objects annoying to work with and much prefer just having to switch modes on my Transformers, but whaddya gonna do.

Flexibility for EDC vehicles has several issues (but many can be overcome). 1. It arguably makes less sense for the humans to all have fully customized, unique vehicles. Transformers can get away with having (mostly) unique bodies, redecos and retools notwithstanding, but humans tend to gravitate towards using similar equipment as the dude next to him. 2. Balance issues (though if you're just renaming stuff obviously this isn't a problem). 3. Theme issues. This Macross example seems like it'd break theme. I don't think we'd let a Transformer or anyone app a Macross Fighter anymore than we'd let them app Megaman as an Autobot. Also you get into issues of 'well our humans don't have 6 story mecha/triplechanging exo-suit/whatver capabilities.

Lastly, I too would like to see more unique vehicles. Like, I dunno, a two-manned tank that'd be tough enough to fight tougher Cons (but requires 2 EDCers in it). I don't really go into combat as Marissa too often as I find exo-suits kinda dull and awkward, but there's not much else for her to do other than get ganged up on by Cons looking for an easy kill, as per a few nights ago. It's taken us too long to get the ball rolling on new vehicles for the EDC to use."

You say, "That is all I got."

Nate Briar says, "Next. :)"

Sam says, "Personally I don't like the exos at all the way they've been forced on us in 3 flavors. It's not like we were given Vanilla, Chocolate, and Strawberry and then allowed to muck around with the recipes with add-ons. What we're given is more like Rum Raisin, Peppermint, and Wasabi. Distinctive, but not things you can really change around to match up with someone's wants if the basic flavors are all mostly unappealing. What we lack is the variations within particular styles, because we're locked into two flavors of transforming mechs, and one flavor of nontransforming mech.

And furthermore, to echo Marissa's point, they're very awkward to use. They screw up the +pot and cause problems with cleaning up logs."

Sam says, "A little more here."

Sam says, "Here's where I take issue: where M says, "It arguably makes less sense for the humans to all have fully customized, unique vehicles. Transformers can get away with having (mostly) unique bodies, redecos and retools notwithstanding, but humans tend to gravitate towards using similar equipment as the dude next to him."

This is true. However, humans -also- traditionally have a huge number of vehicles with very specific roles. Very little in the military's arsenal is general purpose but infantry, yet here we've been given pretty much nothing but general purpose equipment.

So I think it's very fair for humans to have customized equipment, because you can just say that it's customized that way to fit a specific role, like real military equipment would be."

Sam says, "What I would do would be give humans an Ability that lets them have an infantry altmode. Better access to armor, firepower, weapons, with some IC limitations to prevent access out in the field (no Power Rangers / Militants). Like power armor, enough to increase their ground effectiveness to the level of say, a Cassette. We could even have the same general rules (chargen's virtually the same anyway), except where a Cassette turns into a tiny useless tape as their altmode, humans have their tiny squishy human altmode as their liability.

Then I'd add some vehicles to give humans -that- option as well. Infantry power armor, piloted vehicles."

Sam says, "The power armor thing would give human stats a -direct- analogue to currently acceptable IC power levels. The vehicles issue is, of course, stickier."

Sam says, "Next."

Nate Briar says, "Sam, quick question. Have you seen the suits for the new GIJoe movie?"

Noah Wolfe shudders.

Sam says, "Sadly, yes. However, power armor is an old concept. Though admittedly, the ARES is pretty much -exactly that already-."

Noah Wolfe says, "The combat objects are something that sets the terrans apart from any other faction. If you set yourself up correctly, they are not clunky at all. I've never had a problem cleaning up a log that I've been in an object. They represent our flexibility to do anything and go anywhere. Our adaptability and resourcefulness as it were. But with the push towards anyone showing up in any environment, that's become watered down. It's also been talked about putting in a mode 2 for humans? If I wanted to app something with a mode 2, I'd app a transformer and get better stats to boot. I do agree with Sam that the objects as they are now are a little boring. They need some spice and that's why we can customize them. But we can't do that if we're being restricted. (More on this in a bit)

The objects are balanced as much as they can be, considering both TF ocs and these things are both the same number of points (usually). There's some difference depending on the player riding inside of course, but they are hardly uber-powered. They can be upgraded, a big plus. But on that, like James has said and I'll say now. The restrictions that are on objects should be removed that have nothing to do with code (and fix those so they can be removed too). They restrict RP and with only the shakiest of reasons...or none at all. And it does feel like they've been put in place because that is what we've talked about the most. I do see a connection there. Some of the rules are contradiction or not listed on the wiki and even though they've been brought up, they haven't been fixed. The resistance/weakness is a good example. Correct me if I'm wrong but, the wiki says you can get resistances/weaknesses for your object, that's good. But you can't get rebuilds for your object, that's bad. The only way you can get resistances/weaknesses is either during chargen or a rebuild. As you can't get a rebuild the only way I see you pulling this off is you must delete your character and a month later, reapply for the character and this time put in the resistances/weaknesses...epic fail."

Sam says, "I have to put this in here: having a mode 2 is not necessarily to represent -being something else-, but could easily be interpreted as a human in a vehicle. Or a human in a suit. Representing it with a specially coded object is completely unnecessary to the elements of play, it just adds an artificially awkward interface between your character object and the game world."

You say, "Seconded."

Talazia Keldahoff thirded, believe it or not.

Noah Wolfe says, "How is 'do' added in front of commands awkward?"

Sam says, "Snarkier: if I wanted to simulate flying a jet, I'd go play a flight simulator."

Sam !defend guarded

Sam says, "Oh crap I meant do !defend guarded"

Talazia Keldahoff says, "I've flubbed quite a few times when being in one scene with Steeltread, then flipping to Talazia and totally forgetting I'm in an exo."

Sam says, "And all variations. !pass, !attack. Getting mixed up is easy, happens alot, and you can spend an entire fight flipping between stances on -yourself- while your exo sits there in Fearless and getting pummeled."

Sam says, "Also, I don't really need to defend the principles of base level simplicity and game function just because it's not the status quo. I think that the status quo needs to be defended because it's unnecessarily complex."

Talazia Keldahoff raises hand. "meanwhile.....despite the combat objects.....there's a drawback."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "drawback to not having them, I mean. like having modes."

Sam says, "What is the drawback?"

Noah Wolfe becomes a transformer?

Sam says, "I think you're conflating the OOC code with some sort of IC implication."

Noah Wolfe says, "The spares point I do agree with though. +vehicles is HUGE."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "if you want to go the modes route, sure, it's easier for pot and all that. the drawback is that you have to assign completely new stats for said mode, and if you want an EXO, which I assume many here will....you have to be given TWO modes. and for most of us....with two exos, we become close to a six changer...or we DO become a six-changer if we get power armor."

Kup says, "Just want to comment that while making your vehicle a seperate mode sounds nice, I don't necessarily think it's workable. Transformers are--usually--stuck with their alternate modes, whereas if a human who normally drives a tank suddenly wants to fly a jet, well, there's nothing stopping him. And yet, if his vehicle is treated as a mode, what, does that mean he has to choose between piloting tanks or jets? Does that mean he needs a "mode" for each? Worse, what if he wants to fly a slightly different kind of jet than usual? Or a helicopter? I mean, how many modes is this guy going to need?

And maybe you'd say, "Well, we can have combat objects for the extra vehicles." Ok, then. But then what's the point of making vehicles a "mode" and not an object if it doesn't eliminate the need for objects? I'm sorry, it sounds convenient, but the logistics simply don't work out. Perhaps a third solution is needed that is neither a "mode" in the same sense as a Transformer, nor an object. Maybe something like how control attacks work."

You say, "The admin versio nof +vehicles (which includes all factions' vehicles) doesn't even parse right cause there's so many :-)"

Sam says, "Actually, I have a response to that, Kup."

You say, "Man I have like 5 exos with my name on them somehow :-)"

You say, "The heck is a 'Phoenix One' and when did I use it?"

Talazia Keldahoff says, "sounds like an old one I had."

Jayson Redfield says, "Good question..."

Sam says, "And my response is: how many jet pilots are also tank drivers? None. Why? Because both are highly-trained positions that have few if any overlapping skills. We could represent a human getting doubled-up training in multiple craft by paying rebuild fees to buy a third mode if they wanted. Like how triple-changers work. But they'd be obviously rare, just like triple-changers. Truth is, humans get a job in the military and typically that's their job for their career. I think it's a mite unrealistic to have people that hop between tanks and jets willy-nilly anyway, and it's an unfairly -free- advantage over the Transformer characters. Paid for obviously by the EDC having sub-par jets and tanks. :)"

Kup says, "Done for now"

Kup says, "Well, considering we're based on a children's show we'd shouldn't sweat "realism" that much. Done for real."

You say, "Note of course that one can't jump from a jet to a tank in the same scene, really, but someone like, I dunno, Blitzwing could."

Rodimus Prime says, "I just want to say this, re: vehicles: I strongly consider app a human with a combat motorcycle. I have no interest in apping a human with an exo. I am not asking that anyone have their exo be taken away to accommodate me, but if a new option is added, I might well take advantage of it. I may not be the only one who feels this way.

At the moment, I don't like the idea of 'transforming' humans, especially if they are then given vehicles on top of that. Supposedly, humans + exo has been balanced against an 80 point OC. If it's transforming humans + combat objects then there would need to be some rebalancing, at the very least.

Concerning Sam's last comment: my dad was a tank driver. Not only could he not fly a jet, he couldn't even operate the guns. Although I think he knew how.

That is all."

Noah Wolfe says, "We're elite...we pilot everything from Aerolights to Zambonies...."

Rodimus Prime says, "Erm, I /would/ strongly consider apping a human with a combat motorcycle."

Rodimus Prime says, "Hmm.... maybe I'd rather have a combat Zambonie... no. Stick with the motorcycle."

Noah Wolfe wants a combat zambonie!

Nate Briar says, "Seriously, if Nate was to have a tank, I'd imagine there would be an NPC crew in there manning it with him."

Kup says, "Also, consider G.I. Joe. I really don't think the cartoon paid much attention to little things like who was qualified to pilot what. Except maybe Wild Bill. He only understood helicopters. But everyone else drove and flew around in whatever, whenever. :)"

Nate Briar says, "So are we cool with the exo and vehicles part?"

Sam says, "Not quite. I have one additional thing to add."

Noah Wolfe has one too...

Nate Briar didn't expect to be two hours into the meeting. :)

Go Sam and then Noah!

Talazia Keldahoff says, "to be honest guys. if I was allowed a rebuild? I'd make the Ventress into a triple changer. bot/jet/tank. but, we need to have the 'rebuild' rule nixed. it's a pain....and I doubt we'd make things like gundams/macross fighters, though we'd resemble them."

Nate Briar says, "A triple changing exo would not work. Not even the Unity had things of that nature."

Noah Wolfe says, "Just one mode, but it was a good one..."

Jayson Redfield says, "WB, James."

Nate Briar says, "Also, being that we get TWO combat objects and access to spares, a triple changer would not be fair at all."

James Bailey sorries...did I miss anything after Marissa said "Man I have like 5 exos etc? :)

Sam says, "One of the reasons human characters are so hard to freaking balance is because only 3 of their stats have any relevance, because the actual 'human' mode is useless. If humans could buy some firepower and armor and weapons, they could be infantry. But they're arbitrarily (heavily) restricted from being useful in combat without their exo-suits. So wow, I have an 8 strength in human mode. Totally useless. But having an 8 Acc, Agl, and Cou mean something. It screws everything up."

You say, "Yeah, you missed a lot of convo, alas."

Nate Briar says, "Don't worry, James. There will be a log up later. Also, this is more or less for me to let you guys tell me what, how, and where you want my attention to go as Fachead. I'm willing to fight for anything as long as you guys want it. :)"

Nate Briar says, "FYI - We can nix Pros and Cons to Terrans if you want. I think we touched a good portion of that. Up to you guys though."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "yeah. nix 'em. we covered them."

James Bailey is okay with nixing it too

You say, "An added pro: Andi's dinners."

Jayson Redfield hees!

You say, "Serious."

Noah Wolfe says, "The topic of changing combat objects is as old as I am...maybe older. This is hardly first time I've been in this discussion as it comes up every once in a while. It's not the first time and will hardly be the last. It's like the masters thing was, it'd rear itself up every once in a while, talked about, snickered at, analogies will be made and eventually it'll submerge. I suspect, unless the admin actually make changes, it'll happen again sometime in the future. Either make the changes or don't. We won't know what will work until we do it. At this point it's all theory. Hell, maybe I'd like any new changes....I don't know.

Yeah, nix it, but save the dinners."

Greg MacLeod nods.

Nate Briar says, "Con - I'm your fachead. :D"

Nate Briar says, "Skip complaints as well?"

Jayson Redfield snickers.

James Bailey has been curious about complaints actually.

Noah Wolfe says, "We bitch about this stuff as is...."

Nate Briar says, "You can always @mail on that topic."

James Bailey er, I thought that meant complaints ABOUT terrans, from staff or non-terrans?

Noah Wolfe says, "Oh...other complaints...I wanna hear that..."

Nate Briar says, "In general. Staff has complaints about us. Except that Noah needs to stop losing his pants. :("

Noah Wolfe says, "Hey! FYI, I have no pants to begin with. Look at what Marissa pays me..."

Noah Wolfe says, "Just a paper bag..."

Greg MacLeod apps for the paper bag exo. Then can't fight his way out! XD

Jayson Redfield snickers.

Nate Briar says, "I'm going to open the floor to Kup for a minute."

Nate Briar says, "You gotta think, Staff has no complaints with us... I think half the admin play Terrans. :)"

Noah Wolfe says, "Or do they....? *shifty eyed at Nate and Marissa*"

Jayson Redfield dun dun duns!

Kup says, "I just thought up a possible solution. What about a global transformation list for EDC'ers? I.e., it'll be like global attacks, except it will list a whole bunch of vehicles you can pilot. Then you type !pilot= and blammo, you're in that vehicle. If the EDC guy has a "personal" vehicle that's been modified, that will show up on the list he can pilot, but for no one else."

Marissa Faireborn has been a-ok with the humies of late.

Sam says, "Kup, I'd actually rather see the humans limited in modes kind of like Transformers."

Noah Wolfe says, "Would something like that would make construction useless?"

Talazia Keldahoff says, "go go power rangers. *ducks*"

Sam says, "Able to purchase extra 'modes,' but only by paying AP for them like adding a mode. I think it creates an air of imbalance to be able to hop in the most suited vehicle whenever you want, for free."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "pretty much."

Noah Wolfe whips his arms around, then plays a flute sword.

Rodimus Prime says, "Second mode in general would make Construction useless."

Sam says, "Nah."

Kup says, "Ok, but then we'd be back to the "I want to pilot a somewhat different vehicle which is of the same general type, but I cannot because I don't have that mode" problem."

Sam says, "I don't see that as a problem, Kup. Transformer players don't get to change into tanks just because they want to. Humans should have to pay just like them for the same benefit."

Kup says, "But that assumes, code and rule-wise, that humans have the same limitations as TF's. And that simply isn't so."

Kup says, "Frankly, nor should it be. If the humans have a little bit of an advantage by getting to choose what they pilot, oh well."

Sam says, "Well, realistically a jet can't turn into a tank. Also realistically, a jet pilot can't drive a submarine. We have rules for jets that -can- turn into tanks, so it's logical to extend those rules to humans who want to drive pilot both jets and submarines."

Sam says, "Storm brewing, I may blip out."

Sam says, "Drive pilot. Woo. Pilot or drive."

Kup says, "Well, just wanted to get my suggestion out, maybe we can look at it again later."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "Kup's idea works well...."

Marissa Faireborn personally has no problem with EDCers being versed in both tanks and jets. I consider it an acceptable break from reality.

Sam says, "I don't either. I just think they should pay for them like everyone else in the game. :D"

Sam says, "Instead of getting them free. That whole 'game balance' thing."

You say, "Or have it be balanced by some other negative."

Sam says, "Instead of everyone getting access to many weak vehicles, why can't we take fewer better vehicles?"

Talazia Keldahoff says, "that's....what we're trying to do sam."

Kup says, "The global vehicles could be mediocre compared to the vehicle the EDC guy specializes in."

James Bailey says, "Because nobody here will agree with you on what are better vehicles?"

Rodimus Prime just wants a motorcycle. :(

Sam says, "Better = vehicles you paid for, rather than freebies."

You say, "Groove is a giant slacker, Rodimus."

Nate Briar says, "So what I'm reading is that there is a somewhat unrealistic approach to the idea of let's say... Sam, who flies a Talon being able to be a tank driver at the same time for example?"

James Bailey says, "The easy way to solve that is for Sam to never ever drive a tank."

Sam says, "You're missing the point, James. The qualifier FOR FREE is in 30 foot flaming letters."

James Bailey says, "The same way I don't ever RP breathing underwater."

Nate Briar says, "Personally, I really think that a tank should and would have NPCs on board. No one can drive a tank, fire the turret, etc. Tanks are like 7+ crew members."

Sam says, "The problem with mediocre vehicles is that they don't hold up in combat. You have to make them mediocre enough to make personalized vehicles appealing, which makes them, well, not really useful."

Kup says, "Nonsense, Nate, it just needs a Halo-style interface. :O"

Nate Briar says, "So why not state that Sam, the Technician, is on board as that. Just like how James is the Captain of his tank?"

Nate Briar says, "Fill the tank up with NPC red shirts. When it gets destroyed, James somehow survives despite his crew being lost. Or Sam, the technician was able to fix things in his. Or Jayson is having a disco in the tank he is in. :)("

Sam says, "For example, here. James doesn't fly, because James doesn't have Flight. We don't have free backpack Flight objects just because James is a human. He has to -buy- it."

Jayson Redfield thwaps Nate.

You say, "Jetpacks are overrated anyway."

Nate Briar says, "Yeah, no Rcoketeer for me."

You say, "Sure they're great and all when you're zipping around, shootin' dudes, but it's only a matter of time before some blind twit with a stick smacks you on the back and you wind up with 1000 years of pain for your troubles."

Sam says, "What I'm saying is that we should probably, for game balance, extend that hypothetical out to Flying Jets and Driving Tanks, and all the other vehicles, by allowing people to -buy- them, but not just get them for free. In the same way that TF Robot/Jets have to pay AP to become TF Robot/Jet/Tanks/whatevers."

Rodimus Prime randoms, "I have a character in my bboard game whose alt mode is a human-sized jetpack."

Rodimus Prime says, "Like, not me. Another player."

Jayson Redfield says, "Awesome."

James Bailey says, "I don't see it as getting stuff for free...I see it as having access to a bunch of 'mediocre' stuff because you got 58 points for your OC instead of 80."

Kup says, "Funny, I once thought about being a TF that could become another TF's backpack."

Sam says, "Otherwise, the alternative is to fill up the +vehicle list with even more stuff, because, gosh, someone might want to drive a jeep one day and a motorcycle the next and a jet the next and a tank the next and a helicopter the next and a spaceship the next and a submarine the next"

James Bailey says, "Or you could have your own personal object and desc it as a jeep and have at it if you really really wanted a jeep."

Sam says, "I'm suggesting having more limited access, but everything you have access to is customizable, upgradeable, and -purchased-."

Sam says, "Therefore able to be -balanced-. And not just by guess, like the exo-suits are."

Noah Wolfe says, "So buying exo-pilot isn't good enough?"

James Bailey says, "I'm suggesting using the exact same code and objects we have now, relaxing a few of the rules that aren't related to code/stats and making things more flexible."

James Bailey says, "Less work for same result."

Sam says, "If you rename and redesc your Talon as a Jeep, it still acts like a Talon. If it's not a combat thing, you can just pose driving a jeep. But if you want a -combat jeep-, you can't."

Sam says, "Right now."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "so we've established that Sam doesn't like exos and wants vehicles."

Rodimus Prime wants a motorcycle. :(

Noah Wolfe says, "Why shouldn't we have to pay a rebuild cost to rename our objects as well as changing a jet to a jeep?"

Sam says, "I don't follow."

Noah Wolfe says, "We name objects...platypus for example. Why not pay something for it?"

Nate Briar says, "It's been a 150 minute meeting, and I'm cool with going to whatever hour you guys want to go on this. Or we can do another meeting strictly on this topic?"

Nate Briar says, "We can each propose our ideal systems on the idea of exos, vehicles, and motorcycles at that point so we can have a clearer definition? It's up to you guys. :)"

Sam says, "I still don't follow. What you're suggesting seems largely irrelevant. There's no reason to pay for anything that's not explicitly intended for combat, however for things that -are- explicitly intended for combat, it's important that they're balanced and also important that there's a fair cost."

IC Time on Earth: Tue Jun 09 20:31:36 2030

Kup says, "Sure, seperate meeting's good."

You say, "I think he means that nobody will mind when I RP driving up to Andi's house in my brand new 2030 Nissan Versa, even though I didn't pay for it."

Marissa Faireborn drives the car that Heroes drive.

Rodimus Prime says, "I thought you were riding me. :("

Marissa Faireborn sweatdrops.

Noah Wolfe scratches his head, "Nevermind then. I'm not really sure what I was getting at. I think I need to turn in for the night since I'm not thinking clearly."

Talazia Keldahoff has a doctor's appointment tomorrow too.

Sam says, "Yes, Marissa. Combat objects require balance and AP costs. Noncombat objects can be whatever."

James Bailey says, "I still don't see a reason to change the code/stats of the current objects if name/desc changes can give the same result. Seems like extra work the same result, then the risk that after that work is done people will still complain because as we can see nobody can even agree right now on what they want. ;)"

Sam says, "Name/desc changes -can't- achieve the same results."

Nate Briar says, "Agreed because if I rename a Talon to Tank, I'm having a velocity of Seeker."

Sam says, "Nothing you can do to the name and desc will make a Talon a Jeep in combat."

Sam says, "Right, Nate."

James Bailey says, "So make a Riptide a Jeep instead."

James Bailey says, "Or a warthog and keep it in mode 1."

Sam says, "A Riptide is not a jeep."

Sam says, "Neither is a warthog"

Sam says, "A Warthog has high armor, where a Jeep would not."

Sam says, "And hovers."

Nate Briar says, "A Riptide might be a submarine at best."

Sam says, "And a Riptide is too small."

James Bailey says, "My Autobot car has Swim and dive and he's not a submarine, he's a car."

Sam says, "That is totally irrelevant."

Rodimus Prime says, "Yes, but he ICly has swim and dive, presumably."

Rodimus Prime says, "Are you suggesting Jeeps should ICly be able to hover?"

Nate Briar says, "If I @name Jayson to Optimus Prime and have him @desc himself to Optimus Prime, would he be able to take on Frenzy?"

You say, "I dunno, Jay's pretty tough."

Sam says, "Right now there's no -analogue- to many vehicles, simply because the current exos are -too specialized-. There's no generic base model to customize."

Sam says, "I can't make a nontransforming tank, because the Warthog is a horrible model for a nontransforming tank. Even if I never transform it."

Jayson Redfield finishes eating and such. You want me to do what?

You say, "Beat up Frenzy."

You say, "While wearing an Optimus Prime outfit."

Rodimus Prime says, "Marissa, keep your bizarre fantasies to yourself."

Sam says, "Anyway, what I'm saying is vacuously true. This line of discussion is irrelevant, because the assertion that A can equal B if you hold your mouth right is demonstrably false."

Nate Briar says, "So let's meet up again soon and tackle this. I don't want to force the decision of vehicles at this current moment. It's been a 3 hour meeting at this point basically and we didn't even touch the concept of rescuing Marissa yet. :)"

Nate Briar says, "So I guess we don't want to save you, Marissa. :("

Talazia Keldahoff says, "actually, yes we do."

You say, "Oh, that. That can happen when I return from vacation. I read in backscroll Jay is keen on doing legwork on this. Ramjet would be the contact person."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "the vehicle and Exo can be the sole focus of another meeting. K, nate?"

Jayson Redfield says, "Foxfire and Jayson would both be looking for clues as to Marissa's whereabouts. :)"

Nate Briar says, "Agreed. It's been a long day and all of you raise great points on exos and vehicles but we could be talking about this later. :)"

Sam says, "We can literally talk about exos and vehicles forever. My assertion is that the -best- and -most fair- thing to do is to follow the rules that everyone else follows. If we don't, we're going to forever be balancing the two separate systems. One system for a small subgroup, and another system for -everyone else- can at no point be truly balanced."

Nate Briar says, "Off topic, Jayson, do you have your first combat scene logged? The one where you posed arriving in a jeep and had a sniper rifle to fight Cyclonus(?) and James and I told you to get out of there so I put you in the Glaive?"

Jayson Redfield has that logged, but does not remember you saying anything about the Glaive.

Jayson Redfield says, "Hi, Andi!"

Nate Briar says, "We have been on exos and vehicles for 2 hours. This is the type of convo that might work better on a Sunday at noon?"

Talazia Keldahoff says, "yup."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "exos and Vehicles for sunday and noon."

Nate Briar says, "We will schedule that for after Excise returns, of course."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "right."

Andi Lassiter says, "oh."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "I hafta head to bed though."

Greg MacLeod says, "Night"

Nate Briar says, "We did determine that Andi has the best dinner parties. That is the plus of being a human."

Nate Briar says, "Let's just go to closing opinions and we'll go from there."

You say, "Night Tala."

Nate Briar says, "Night Tal."

Talazia Keldahoff says, "night."

You say, "Hi Andi."

Jayson Redfield snugs Tal. Ni ni.

Nate Briar says, "Jase, you're up first for closing statements, opinions, etc."

Nate Briar says, "Then non-admin players and then staff. FFA style though."

Jayson Redfield doesn't really have anything to say. I'm not really good at this sort of thing.

James Bailey says, "I can throw out a spammy final opinion :)"

Jayson Redfield says, "Go for it, Jimmy."

Nate Briar says, "I'd love to see it, James. :)"

Sam says, "My primary concerns are the thematic issue of the EDC being the Defenders of the Earth without having the ability to actually defend the Earth. I'd rather see them work much more closely with the Autobots. It seems that any scene involving Bots and EDC leaves the Bots and EDC not really working together so much as working toward the same goal (playing beside each other rather than with each other). If there were a more formalized IC arrangement, where the EDC was more a part of the Autobot faction -- like a division within the Autobots, where the EDC actually gave up some command-level authority to the Autobot command structure, I think we'd get more and better RP out of it."

Rodimus Prime says, "Oh. That reminds me. I've been asked to start hosting joing EDC/Autobot training scenes. Consider this my casting call for people to start shooting me with topics/scenarios. But in @mail, as I'm about to go to bed."

James Bailey says, "From my perspective the Terrans are a faction that has steady activity, a good number of players who are very dedicated and contribute to the MUSH. There are some things that make then unique and things that maybe don't fit in other factions without flirting with unthemeliness.

I'm not really thinking that Terrans be equal to other factions. But at the same time I doubt that many people want to play supporting characters. I really like what Nate said about letting factions can evolve. And not just by adding FCs (which yeah doesn't make sense for Terrans).

I think if you look at other factions they have evolved in other ways besides FCs. They get to make indestructable secret underwater bases when their players RP hard for it, or awesome indestructable space-cruisers when their facheads think it would be cool and set up a little RP to justify it. They get to have characters rise from regular OCs to Air Commanders or heads of Intel over time (maybe partly because there are less restrictions on what they can upgrade to). That's the kind of stuff I want to see in the Terrans. I don't think it's unfair or unthemely or even unbalancing because at the end of the day it's the result of people's RP and effort."

Rodimus Prime says, "The human faction is the only one where an OC can evolve into Fachead."

Nate Briar hides. :(

Sam says, "Because our real fachead FC never has a player anymore. :P"

James Bailey points at his comment that 'There are some things that make then unique and things that maybe don't fit in other factions without flirting with unthemeliness' :)

Rodimus Prime says, "Who's that? Spike? Isn't he ICly retired?"

Sam says, "Also, I think that transforming mecha kinda kills our credibility."

James Bailey says, "If the Autobots want the ability to have an OC evolve into a fachead they can bring it up in an Autobot meeting. :) (I personally don't want)"

James Bailey says, "I'm just saying I'd like the same ability to evolve and grow and get rewarded for RP efforts."

Jayson Redfield was head of the Protectorate for a while. So, yeah. I had a chance at being Fachead and didn't do so well. Anyone else is much better suited than I am.

Kup says, "I don't think there was a "little" RP for the factions' dreadnaughts, but, eh."

You say, "Man I /wish/ one of you would rise up to become Air Commander. None of you guys seem to want promotions :-)"

Nate Briar says, "Jayson, I am a horrible fachead so don't feel bad."

Sam says, "The Orion Pax is very much an Autobot ship, no matter how much it's said that it's 'for humans too'"

Nate Briar wants a promotion!

Nate Briar's rank/title is 5/Captain (Acting). Division: Edc military.

You say, "Really?"

James Bailey says, "I don't know where you get that Marissa...the only one who I've heard talk about rank is Jayson and he's said he wants promotions. So then you demoted him. :P"

Sam says, "Holy cow, Nate. Marissa's kidnapped and you were the Captain of a spaceship. Promote yourself and take over in her absence. :P"

Jayson Redfield snugs Nate. "You do fine."

You say, "Tala mentions it a lot, I tried promoting Sam but he requested not to be, and I distinctly remember talking with you about it several months back but you saying you didn't have time."

Jayson Redfield says, "I said I want promotions?"

You say, "This was during the EDC Mission series when I was asking if you wanted to be the leader, etc."

Rodimus Prime says, "Okay, I have /got/ to go to bed. I'll look at the log later."

Nate Briar says, "See, I don't like getting promoted because I feel like I did that myself. It's like I slept with myself. And that makes me feel dirty!"

You say, "Night Roddo."

Nate Briar says, "Thanks for coming Roddo!"

James Bailey says, "Er...you askied me if I wanted to lead the mission and I said no I wouldn't be able to be online."

James Bailey says, "Well, wouldn't reliably be able to be online."

Sam says, "You're the fachead! You're -supposed- to be in charge! D:"

James Bailey says, "You didn't ask if I wanted to be 'the leader'."

James Bailey says, "I told Nate I wanted to be rank 5 at some point a long time ago and eventually he promoted me."

James Bailey's rank/title is 5/. Division: Edc military.

You say, "You and I do not share a similar memory of our discussion."

You say, "That said, if you're now down with being promoted into the higher echelons of power, fantastic."

Andi Lassiter says, "My problem with promotions and all of that is my online hours. I log in just as everyone else is saying "Good night!" . It's honestly rather depressing sometimes."

Jayson Redfield snugs Andi.

You say, "You and I gotta plan more Friday/Saturday stuff when I can be on super late :-)"

Andi Lassiter says, "Sure, if stupid RL stuff doesn't keep me away from my computer until midnight or later Pacific time on Fridays and Saturdays like it sometiems does."

Andi Lassiter says, "Pleas epardon typos, typing blind curently."

Jayson Redfield snugs Andi again.

Sam's rank/title is 3/Sr Technician (Acting). Division: Edc medtechops.

Andi Lassiter says, "Okay, since I have nothing terribly useful to contribute, I'm going to go AFK for a very longish while and rinse the blue dye out of my hair. Talk to y'all later, tomorrow if not tonight."

James Bailey takes off too, see you guys later.

Marissa Faireborn is going to call it a night also.

Sam says, "Night y'all. Quitters."

You say, "Only works with capital letters."